專訪鄭俠：港獨旗飄揚 Interviewing Paladin Cheng: When HK Independence Flag is Flying
*The English one is translation of Chinese article. Shall there be any discrepancies, the Chinese version shall precede.
鄭俠近日一炮而紅，不少傳媒都找他訪問。不過這不代表他會擺架子，相反，筆者午飯後找他，當時香港半夜，筆者也只想留下message約他訪問。不料他照應不誤，結果談至香港翌晨五時許，他小睡一會，十時便把剩下問題答完，然後上班去也。這種作息非常香港，一點也不加拿大。如此香港的香港人，揮舞香港獨立旗，也格外有份量。
Paladin Cheng has become popular since his meme “Donald Trump don’t trust China, China is asshole” was shared by Donald Trump Jr. When we messaged him to invite him for interview, he responded and started the interview immediately. It was afternoon in Canada and midnight in Hong Kong. We chatted until 5:30 am in HK, when the dawn came. He asked me to leave him the remaining questions then took a nap until 10, and responded to them before setting off for work. His pace is very Hong Kong and hardly Canadian. He is so Hong Kong, and the “Hong Kong Independence” flag he holds resembles him.
記/J：記者Apeiron/ Journalist, Apeiron
俠/P：鄭俠/ Paladin Cheng
記：首先好多謝你接受我哋tohknews訪問。近排你果句Donald Trump don’t trust China, China is asshole紅遍全世界。好多外國商家用你個樣整商品，可惜香港無法例保護肖像權，最多係幅相來自段片，而段片嘅持有人有版權。你有無諗過用你呢句slogan出商品集資，然後支持抗爭？
J: Thank you for being interviewed. Many foreign businesses used your meme to make goods. Unfortunately Hong Kong does not have any laws to protect Right of portrait, the only protection is the copyright owned by the ones who recorded the videos. Have you ever imagined making use of this slogan to make goods and raise fund to support the revolution in Hong Kong?
俠：我唔識搞呢啲野。 況且這些商品只有一時的熱潮，我想所得收益有限。但若因變成商品而限制全世界推廣這meme，這對「反中國」有害而無益。我看還是讓他變成「食菜貓」或黑人問號等meme更長久更有話題性吧。拍片者Avi Yemini相信也是一位「反邪惡中國」的人，相信他也樂見我這想法！
P: I’m not familiar with these. These kind of meme may be popular for a short period of time only, and the revenue is limited. If we restrict people around the world to share this meme for the sake of making goods, it will indeed hinder the Anti-China campaign. It is better to let this meme be long lasting, just like the vegetable-eating cat and black man puzzled with question mark (AKA NBA player Nick Young). The recorder of the video clip, Avi Yemini, is believed to be a guy who is Anti Evil China. Guess he can’t agree me more on this.
記：之前你受立場訪問時，都表示過你不會參選。其實參選立會無可避免要好多人幫手，似乎和你不群不黨的風格格格不入。這是主要原因嗎？另外，喺反修例運動開始之後，你點睇由香港政府搞嘅選舉，包括區選同立選？
J: You had said that you would not join the election of LegCo this year (2020), since a candidate needs helps from many and it’s not your practice. Is the the main reason? After the start of Water Revolution, or known as Anti ELAB (Extradition Law Amendment Bill), what do you think about the elections held by HK government, like the District Council Election and LegCo Election?
俠：我自己不喜歡從政，總覺這不是我強項，更怕欠人人情，所以不去參選咯。我喜歡和一大班人打邊爐，我好喜歡熱鬧，嘻嘻哈哈鳩噏最開心。 但另一方面也最怕朋黨政治，所以不群不黨了。
區選立選也在搶資源，三萬元月薪區議員和十萬元立會議員已放在這裡，搶到就幫手足吧，另一方面就是左仔資源被搶走，佢地少咗子彈。
我對體制內改革無望，體制內抗爭也要杯水車薪，但有議員這身份，你可用民意代表去外國進行外交遊說，若真的想革命，請求外國支持是必須的，但別妄想外國會給很大支持給幾個素人，但若一大班民意代表議員組團遊說，意義效果會大不同了。
P: I am not keen on becoming a politician; I am not proficient at that. I’m afraid of owing others favours by leveraging the connections with them, so I won’t join the election. I like to have hot pot with many. I like bustling with noise. On the other hand, I hate party politics, so I tend to be a maverick. District Council and Legislative Council seats are considered monetary resources. They enjoy a monthly salary of $30,000 (about $5000 CAD) for DC and $100,000 (about 18685 CAD) monthly for LC. These money can help the other activists and it is good to take shares and lessen the funding available for pro China camp.
I don’t think we can make a revolution under the existing system. However, lawmaker is a kind of citizen representative, and this identity can be leveraged in lobbying in foreign countries. For revolution, it is essential to obtain foreign support. It is hard to ask help from foreign countries by commoner, but it is a different story if the same is done by citizen representatives.
記：你講得啱，好過淨係得over my dead body同埋葉劉起機果類人去海外遊說。而且海外一直都有手足幫手遊說，有埋獨派嘅手足作為民意代表一齊遊說，就直情可以用影子政府形式建立外交了。
J: You are right, it’s far better then “over my dead body” (Alvin Yeung, pan democratic lawmaker) and Aeroplane Starter (Regina Ip, pro China Lawmaker) lobbying overseas and representing HK, who are misleading officials around the world on their perceptions on Hong Kong. Actually many overseas HKers are lobbying, the presence of pro-HK independence lawmakers will surely reinforce the efficiency as well as effectiveness. It is good to form Shadow government for foreign affairs, say, with such lawmakers, to make it more sound and convincing.
俠：我想區立議會是中國赤化香港的最後漏洞吧，君不見中國有立法會選舉嗎？中國小小村委已可擺官威，貪巨款，搶民女。反觀香港政黨仲需要出來躹躬奉迎市民爭選票扮聽民意， 這是香港僅有的，最後的權利。我們應珍惜它，利用它。
沒一個香港人有打敗中共/建香港國的經驗，多多方法也要試啊！
你畀把機關鎗我我都未必射中幾多個共匪，因為我渣我廢。
同樣地，你畀議席以往的政客也是一事無成，因為佢地同樣渣同廢，隨時調轉鎗頭，你睇以前民主黨李華明同公民黨的湯家驊？然而，所託非人而已，畀把槍鄭俠同畀個議席班政客都係糟蹋這件武器。是人問題，但不在武器本身。
P: I think the parliament is the final wonderland of Hong Kong from Chinalization. We still have election of the Legco. In China, even a small village’s offical can seize the money and female civilians like a bandit leader. Parties in Hong Kong still need to fight for their votes, it is the final and only right can be found in Hong Kong, we should admire it and leverage it well. People have neither the experience of defeating CCP nor building the HK nation, we should always try to make use of every possible means to do so. I am weak, even you provide me a machine gun, I cannot shoot many Communist Chinese down. Many politicians are as weak as me, they just did nothing in their positions for the past 23 years. Some of them even betrayed us, like Fred Lee Wah Ming of Democratic Party and Ronny Tong Ka Wah of Civic Party. Human factor is the weakest link, not the weapon.
記：如果獨派嘅人出嚟選，你會唔會幫佢站台？
J: If those pro HK independence politicians join the elections, would you support them in promotion?
俠：明獨不會有，暗獨盞害佢😎我最多叫身邊人去幫手。
P: The authentic independence fighters will always lay low and never think of taking part in elections. It would sabotage their effort if I help them to increase their familiarity. The most I can do is ask for my friends’ help.
記：如果係自殺式參選，嗌口號博DQ，俾多啲實例美國執行《香港人權及民主法》呢？
J: How about those people join the election in suiciding way, fish for Disqualification from government, and provide the rationale for US to implement “Hong Kong Human Right and Democracy Act”?
俠：好呀，上屆已有這些人。陳浩天，梁天琦，陳國強，賴綺雯已是代表了，這屆再多人「送頭」DQ，更好。
P: Good, someone did it in the last LegCo election, like Chan Ho Tin Andy, Leung Tin Kei Edward, Chan Kwok Keung James and Lai Yi Man. The more the merrier.
記：你帶旗隊搶喺頭排，分薄咗泛民上鏡機會，佢地話你「騎劫」。另一方面，獨派方面嘅激進分子又覺得單單舉旗行得唔夠前。果啲諗住用文攻提升香港嘅自治權去到同主權國家無分別，但死唔係講香港獨立嘅人，甚至惡意批評你同其他公開露面宣揚港獨嘅抗爭者做「講獨派」。對於種種批評，你又點自處？
J: Pan Dem accused you of hijacking their protest since you raise HK-independence flag in front of them. On the other hand, the frontier of independence said that merely flag raising is inadequate. For those autonomy fighters, who merely want to increase the autonomy of Hong Kong by diplomacy but not having the title of independence, accused you of fighting for independence without concrete action (armed revolution). What do you think about such accusations?
俠：時機未到，我們獨派應創造時機，大勢是民主回歸雙普選，我次次來舉旗你唔buy，冇辦法。
人人覺醒時間不同，詐瞓既老一輩，由佢，但我多次上街舉旗，真係好多丹心一片的香港人未覺醒那民族性，更對我舉旗惡言相向，我返去扁咀一陣，大覺瞓第日返工食飯，沉澱完下星期日咪就係抵唔住中共咁仆街而再次舉旗上街頭，月復月，年復年，咁就舉左咁耐了。但壓迫更密更大，而家仲被濫捕和無可疑被自殺，人心思變，自會思考我們經常舉出來的獨旗背後意義。
泛民又好，本土又好，或甚前線勇武都好，都不可否認要尋求外國支持，不論聲援，金援，定係日後革命的鎗援。
中共仆街，人人得而誅之，香港人同佢割席本是應有之義，冇人夠膽講香港人deserved to rule by CCP，咁點解香港人唔say no？要民主定人權，講到尾都係主權問題，不爭主權卻在框架內抗爭，怕得罪中共，這是劃地為牢，虛耗光陰。他日中共兵臨城下，血洗彌敦道，中共只會講這是鎮壓暴亂，最多只是內戰，外國欲救無從。
反觀香港有獨立國體，中共就是侵略，顧忌就更大了，外國隨時派兵維和，香港人不是很怕打仗嗎？這就更應親西方民主國家陣營了！外國要幫你總有個理由，先要看你民意能否感動本國人，他日向你提供支援才不會失去民意吧。
那就給我看你反共或甚獨立的意志了，我無人無脈，咁就舉旗宣傳吧，我們旗隊的旗已上多個國際傳媒了，香港獨立的呼聲已在外國變成舊聞了。
退一萬步，邊個國家獨立唔會舉旗？以往波羅的海三國，烏克蘭。 今蘇格蘭，加泰隆尼亞，全都是旗海，我鄭俠只是香港獨立歷史洪流當中其中一枝旗而已，何等渺小？～
P: They don’t buy HK independence. It may not be a good timing right now; let us incubate the conditions. Everyone disillusions with different paces. For those older generation, just let it be. I raised the flag many times, many activists who are passionate but did not disillusion accused me. I felt sad and go back to daily life, next Sunday I get on the street again and again, since I found the Chinese Communist Party is too asshole. I repeated this process months by months, years by years, like you see this years. However, the oppression from CCP enlarge and more rapidly though these years. People will consider through times, they will think of why we keep on raising the flag.
No matter Pan Dem, localist or frontiers, they cannot neglect foreign support, in terms of either showing solidarity, seeking fund support or weapon availability.
China is asshole, everyone has the obligation to eliminate them. Hong Kongers deserve to cut off with them. No one have guts to say “Hong Konger deserve to rule by CCP”, why don’t Hong Kongers say NO? The basis for fighting for either democracy or human right is sovereignty. Negligence of sovereignty, but simply playing CCP’s game under their rules, in order to avoid irritating CCP, IS SELF LIMITING. IT IS TIME WASTING. If one day CCP sends their armies to Hong Kong, massacring Nathan Road, CCP will only say that it is in the name of suppressing riots, which is their domestic business and foreign countries can help in no way.
If Hong Kong becomes a country, when CCP sends armies to Hong Kong, foreign countries can then send peace-keeping force to help defending. Aren’t Hong Kongers afraid of war? That’s why we should stand with Western democratic camp! Reasons are necessary for foreign countries to interfere, like your actions touching their voter’s heart, the ruling party wouldn’t lose support from their people if they send armies to help HK.
So I show you my will to independence, I did not get affiliated with any camps, then I promote HK independence by raising flag. Our flag raising team has already been covered on headlines of many countries’s press. Hong Kong Independence is no longer news. Take a step back, which country’s independent fighters raised no flags? Three Baltic States and Ukraine were holding in the past, and Scotland and Catalunya have been holding for now. They all have flag sea, I am just a single flag in the long river of history.
記：的確，因為你keep住舉旗，好多唔知本土係咩嘅後生仔都認識到港獨，都出嚟衝。睇到而家咁多後生仔衝得仲前過我地當年，就發現包括我在內好多本土派人士對你有不當批評。每個崗位都要有人做，一隊軍隊除咗士兵之外，後勤、補給線，以至在城池內舉旗徵兵都好重要。
J: Yes, you keep on raising flag, many youngsters who even don’t know localism (Anti Colonialism in HK context, against evil CCP) do know HK independence, and they are fighting in the front line. When we were seeing many youngsters fighting in the situation more dangerous then our old days, it’s easy to find that many localists (Anti Colonialism in HK context, against evil CCP), including me, criticised you wrongly in the past. Every role is equally important.
俠：嗯，歷史會証明昨日為手法拗而氣係好無謂。臨時政府，假設有四司十三局
各人應就自己專長喜好去加入各部，有了這班子，香港人才更會相信香港獨立。香港人民不需要執政意志，支持便是。但獨派就要執政意志，創造條件！
1.我可信的
2.我們可信的
3.我們有軍人有律師有工廠有科技有商人有資金，我們可信的。
獨派在那個stage呢？
P: Yes, time will tell it is meaningless to argue for approaches fighting for independence. For instance, consider establishing a temporary government, say, with 4 bureaus and 13 departments, we can take up different responsibilities according to our talents. Hong Kongers would be more confident in HK independence if such a cabinet is formed. Hong Kongers don’t need the will to govern, they can just support us, but we do need to have this will and nurture the condition (for independence).
1. Something that I can trust
2. Something that we can trust
3. We have army, lawyer, factories, technology, funding, and we can trust them.
Which stage are the activists for independence in?
記：你提到港獨有stage之分，咁在你心目中，港獨應該分邊幾個stage?
J: As you said, there are different stages of HK independence, would you like to name and describe them?
俠：細分有好多的，至少要有唔同職業組成的政黨或班子先。咁就要班有心人放棄山頭主義先。
P: There are so many stages. At least people in different occupations should form their teams or parties. The first step of it is to give up factionalism.
記：臨時政府,你認為需要選票認受嗎?還是如何組成？當初7.1喺立法會讀宣言果時，已經好多人講緊喺果度成立香港國臨時政府，終於變做五大訴求。後來九月、十月又吹過風組臨立會。
J: Do you think the temporary government need votes for legitimacy? How to form it? When those frontiers make their declaration in Legislative Council on July 1, many people on the web said that we should form our temporary government in there. Unfortunately it became 5 demands. Later in September or October, the discussions on the web suggested a tendency to form a temporary parliament (of HK nation).
俠：在外國組成，暫無需選票。和獨派香港議員在外國車輪式遊說。歷史未必一步步向前，可能行前三步退返兩步，好慢啊但總是行前左，至少政客不敢再用平反六四和堅守一國兩制作招徠吧。幾時去到港獨我答你唔到啊😭， 要等香港人食完屎後心態有幾咁進化了。
P: It can be formed in foreign country, no need to have votes for legitimacy in this stage. They can do lobbying job with those pro-independence HK lawmakers. It is not a piece of cake indeed, like rowing upstream. Although the progress is slow, at least the HK politicians can no longer use June 4 (Tiananmen Square Massacre) nor “one country, two systems” to gain support and earn their seats. I have no idea when HK can become an independent country; it needs the evolution of Hong Kongers after they got fed up for being in deep shit multiple times.
記：喺本土派入面，你最欣賞邊位前輩？佢有啲咩地方令你欣賞？
J: Which evangelist(s) do you admire in the localism camp (Anti Colonialism in HK context)? Which attribute(s) do you admire on him/her/them?
俠：本土派先祖該是1994年仙遊了的馬文輝先生，他是本土之父，反共之父，港獨之父，其思想劃時代地影響著我們。
今在世人物我好欣賞李怡先生，他是「80歲後」，但其思想比很多反港獨的80後更清晰更前進，不論佢連載的政治文章定係早年看過他在<論歸英>寫序。
他思想之開放，論點之清晰，對中共及人性的了解，真教一大班年青人汗顏。年紀大不是問題，思想老化才是香港死因，我亦希望在此確立自己下半世的做人態度，「學習同思考新事物」。
J: Ma Man Fai, who left us in 1994, is the father of localism (Anti Colonialism in HK context), father of Anti Communism, father of Hong Kong independence), his epoch-making thought influences us.
For those who are still alive, I admire Lee Yee. He is more than 80 years old, but his mind is more clearer and avant-garde then those 80s youngsters who are anti-HK independence, no matter his political articles or the preface of the book “On the returning to UK”. His open-mindedness, clear arguments, thorough understanding of CCP and human nature, makes so many youngsters ashamed of themselves. Aging is not a problem, the stubborn-minded who refuse to self-reflect, advance and improve is the cause of death of Hong Kong. I hope I can act like him for the rest of my life, keep learning and thinking the new things.
記：你覺得香港非獨立不可的根本理由是甚麼？
J: In you mind, what is the root cause of HK independence?
俠：香港的維持呼吸生命的體制叫「一國兩制」同《基本法》。很可惜，這體制會在27年後shut down(2047大限）。真雙普選都好，體制關掉，你和下一代就會死，何況這體制未到期已腐化了。香港人常道要堅守一國兩制，但一國兩制是誰發明的？鄧小平啊，1989.6.4.屠殺天安門學生的人，其心腸何其毒辣？
香港人不是悼念了三十年嗎？中共的鄧小平很聰明，他或早已預見香港今天的情況了，一切盡在中共掌握中，基本法的任意刪改，還有那終審法庭和紅色法官啊！
香港人快樂與否，舞照跳馬照跑，但抗爭者的屍體一具發現啊，但這並非中共要考慮的事，他們只管是否under control而已！
獨派有一條簡單的信條：就是不相信中國人。
香港反送中反廿三條主流政客相信的和我們一樣，不相信中國和中共。
但發明基本法的，撰寫的，簒改的，執行的全都是中共的人，今政客們只求不被DQ而和建制派一同擁護基本法，這不是他們矛盾和虛偽嗎？
聰明的香港人亦老早看出中共不可信，80，90年代已移民了！
一國兩制，基本法，會繼續發臭和腐化，沒救了，2047就會化掉。
香港獨立，唯一出路。
P: The policy which keep HKG alive is “One country, Two systems”, and it will be shut down 27 years later, in 2047. Even we have universal suffrage at that time, when the policy is no longer in effect, you and your next generation will eventually die, not to mention the system is already corrupted nowadays. Hong Kongers always keep on mentioning “One Country, Two systems”, but who invented it? Deng Xiaoping, the one who killed students in Tiananmen Square Massacre in June 4 of 1989. How vicious he is? Can’t you see Hong Kongers mourned for 30 years? CCP’s Deng Xiaoping is clever, he had foreseen what happens today, everything is under CCP control, so they changed the terms in “the Basic Law” arbitrarily, and appointed those red judges, who are loyal to CCP!
They don’t care Hong Kongers happiness, nor those dead bodies. They just care everything under control.
For us, fighters for independence, we believe in a simple rule: Never trust Chinese. Hong Kongers who are anti ELAB and the politicians, are having similar thoughts like us: they believe in neither CCP nor their government. However those who drafted, changed and implemented “the Basic Law” are all controlled by CCP. Now those politicians, who support “the Basic Law” like those pro-China politicians, are pleading CCP not to disqualify them from being elected. Don’t you think they are self-denying and hypocritical? The clever Hong Kongers knew CCP cannot be trusted and left Hong Kong early in 80s and 90s.
Both “One Country, Two Systems” and “the Basic Law” are corrupted, and they will no longer be in effect after 2047.
HK independence is the only way for Hong Kong to survive.
記：你期望外國政府點樣協助？
J: Which kind of help do you expect from foreign countries?
俠：希望外國政府能明白香港儘管是小國小民，也是好國好民。
700萬個人的文明香港對14億野蠻人，不救助他將會變作成14億+700萬的人中國人，希望西方文明國家助我們獨立成國，我們定當竭盡全力保障香港和特區或英殖香港一樣，做中國的窗口，保障東亞穩定。（編按：香港行普通法，接軌世界，大陸行大陸法。此外，由於港式速度、香港人質素、港幣以美元計價、完善法例、地理位置及國際關係等因素，香港乃東亞金融及物流中心，香港不穩則東亞不穩。）
P: I hope they understand Hong Kongers are civilised citizens and Hong Kong is a developed country. Compared to 7 million human in Hong Kong, there are 1.4 billion barbarians in China, if they don’t help Hong Kong, it will eventually become 1.4 billion + 7 million barbarians. I hope the developed countries can help Hong Kong to attain independence, and Hong Kong can keep the East Asia order (TOHK: financial order, since Hong Kong is well trusted with her highly efficient and competent manpower, comprehensive economy, rule of law, the monetary values of Hong Kong Dollar is calculated in terms of US Dollars, geographical edge, international relations), as well as the window of China. (TOHK: since HK exercises common law, where China exercises continental law)
記：有咩野說話想同加拿大嘅香港同胞講？
J: Anything you like to talk to Hong Kongers who live in Canada?
俠：很痛心加拿大受苦於中國肺炎，希望你們早日康復，各加國國民康復後記得向你們政府施壓問責，別讓痛苦再發生在加國！
也借這篇文章感謝我一位好友「亞歷士」，祝他在加國永遠開心快樂，我稍後定去探望他，我愛香港，也愛加拿大！
P: I am devastated to know Canada suffering from China Virus (Wuhan Coronavirus), I hope every Canadian recover soon. Remember to give pressure to your government for this pandemic, don’t let tragedy happen in Canada again!
Thanks to my friend Alex who is now living in Canada, I wish him happy forever, I will visit him later on. I love Hong Kong, and Canada too!
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